GRRR: The Geometry of Reshaping, Rotation, and Routing in Decoder LLM post-training
Organizations: CUNY Graduate Center · The City College of New York
Abstract
We study how post-training changes the weights of Large Language Models (LLMs) relative to their pretrained weights. Across 12 post-training chains with supervised fine-tuning (SFT) and reinforcement learning (RL), we express each weight update in the pretrained matrix's singular value decomposition (SVD) frame. This decomposition separates the changes of three geometrically distinct components: diagonal values, which reshapes singular values; off-diagonal values, which rotates the coupling between pretrained input and output directions; and null-space values, which routes outside the matrix's original nonzero SVD core. On a math evaluation suite, we find that removing the diagonal component usually preserves most of the gains from post-training. These results suggest that post-training gains are carried primarily by reconfiguring and extending pretrained pathways rather than by substantially changing singular values of pre-trained models.
Figures & tables
Appendix figures & tables9 assets
Supplementary material from the paper’s appendix.
Appendix
| Chain | Base Model (HF identifier) | Size | Pipeline |
| C1 | Qwen/Qwen2.5-Math-1.5B [ Yang et al., 2024 ] | 1.5B | SFT GRPO ( 2) |
| C2 | Qwen/Qwen3-8B-Base [ Yang et al., 2025 ] | 8B | SFT GPPO |
| C3 | Qwen/Qwen3-14B [ Yang et al., 2025 ] | 14B | SFT GRPO |
| C4 | Qwen/Qwen3-8B-Base [ Yang et al., 2025 ] | 8B | GRPO (direct) |
| C5 | mistralai/Mistral-7B-v0.1 [ Jiang et al., 2023 ] | 7B | SFT DPO |
| C6 | Qwen/Qwen2.5-Math-7B [ Yang et al., 2024 ] | 7B | SFT DPO / PPO † / RAFT † |
| Chain | Family | Trained Model | Size | From | Method | Domain |
| C1 | Qwen 2.5 | DeepSeek-R1-Distill-Qwen-1.5B [ Guo et al., 2025 ] | 1.5B | Qwen2.5-Math-1.5B | SFT | Reasoning |
| C1 | Qwen 2.5 | DeepScaleR-1.5B-Preview [ Luo et al., 2025 ] | 1.5B | DeepSeek-R1-Distill-Qwen-1.5B | GRPO | Math |
| C1 | Qwen 2.5 | Nemotron-Reasoning-Qwen-1.5B [ Liu et al., 2025 ] | 1.5B | DeepSeek-R1-Distill-Qwen-1.5B | GRPO | Math |
| C2 | Qwen 3 | Klear-Reasoner-8B-SFT [ Su et al., 2026 ] | 8B | Qwen3-8B-Base | SFT | Reasoning |
| C2 | Qwen 3 | Klear-Reasoner-8B [ Su et al., 2026 ] | 8B | Klear-Reasoner-8B-SFT | GPPO | Reasoning |
| C3 | Qwen 3 | UniReason-Qwen3-14B-SFT [ Huan et al., 2025 ] | 14B | Qwen3-14B | SFT | Reasoning |
| Chain | Transition | SV cos | ||
| Post-SFT follow-up transitions (12 transitions) | ||||
| C6 (Qwen2.5-7B) | SFT DPO | 0.0003 | 1.000000 0 | 0.01 0.01% |
| C8 (LLaMA-3-8B) | SFT PPO | 0.0010 | 1.000000 0 | 0.01 0.01% |
| C1 (Qwen2.5-1.5B) | SFT GRPO-A | 0.0010 | 1.000000 0 | 0.01 0.01% |
| C10 (Eurus-2-7B) | SFT PRIME | 0.0010 | 1.000000 0 | 0.02 0.01% |
| C2 (Qwen3-8B) | SFT GPPO | 0.0020 | 1.000000 0 | 0.02 0.01% |
| Transition | % | ||||
| SFT (base SFT) | |||||
| C1 | 109.8 | 82.3 | 109.2 | ||
| C2 | 167.7 | 277.5 | 165.2 | ||
| C3 | 183.1 | 197.2 | 183.5 | ||
| C5 | 181.0 | 19.7 | 181.2 | ||
| C6 | 176.6 | 10.7 | 176.3 | ||
| Chain | Base SFT model | Base | Full | Diag | Off | Null | OffNull |
| C1 | Qwen2.5-1.5B DS-R1-Distill | 31.3 | 49.2 | 6.4 (13%) | 31.3 (64%) | 18.5 (37%) | 28.9 (59%) |
| C2 | Qwen3-8B KlearReasoner-SFT | 21.2 | 60.4 | 14.0 (23%) | 9.5 (16%) | 9.7 (16%) | 56.1 (93%) |
| C3 | Qwen3-14B UniReason-SFT | 17.2 | 49.1 | 28.0 (57%) | 54.3 (111%) | 55.7 (113%) | 45.8 (93%) |
| C5 | Mistral-7B mistral-sft-beta | 3.6 | 5.7 | 1.9 (33%) | 5.8 (102%) | 6.2 (110%) | 5.7 (100%) |
| C6 | Qwen2.5-Math-7B RLHFlow-SFT | 35.8 | 43.5 | 38.8 (89%) | 49.7 (114%) | 48.0 (110%) | 42.1 (97%) |
| C7 | OLMo-2-7B SFT | 5.0 | 8.6 | 7.9 (92%) | 9.0 (105%) | 9.8 (114%) | 7.5 (88%) |
| Chain | RL model | Alg. | Base | Full | Diag | Off | Null | OffNull |
| C1 | DeepScaleR | GRPO | 49.2 | 51.8 | 41.0 (79%) | 43.8 (85%) | 51.7 (100%) | 54.4 (105%) |
| C1 | Nemotron | GRPO | 49.2 | 61.3 | 40.3 (66%) | 57.6 (94%) | 59.2 (97%) | 62.7 (102%) |
| C2 | KlearReasoner | GPPO | 60.4 | 71.7 | 58.6 (82%) | 69.8 (97%) | 69.0 (96%) | 72.6 (101%) |
| C3 | UniReason | GRPO | 49.1 | 66.5 | 75.1 (113%) | 64.2 (96%) | 65.9 (99%) | 65.0 (98%) |
| C5 | zephyr-beta | DPO | 5.7 | 3.1 | 5.2 (168%) | 5.3 (171%) | 4.7 (153%) | 3.7 (120%) |
| C6 | DPO | DPO | 43.5 | 49.7 | 41.2 (83%) | 45.0 (90%) | 48.5 (98%) | 49.8 (100%) |
| Chain | Transition | |||
| SFT (base SFT) | ||||
| C1 | Qwen2.5-1.5B DS-R1-Distill | 0.204 | 0.288 | 0.508 |
| C2 | Qwen3-8B KlearReasoner-SFT | 0.149 | 0.456 | 0.397 |
| C3 | Qwen3-14B UniReason-SFT | 0.011 | 0.504 | 0.487 |
| C5 | Mistral-7B mistral-sft-beta | 0.000 | 0.508 | 0.492 |
| C6 | Qwen2.5-Math-7B RLHFlow-SFT | 0.000 | 0.453 | 0.548 |
| Transition | Full | Remove diag. | Remove random | ||
| C1 SFT | 49.2 | 28.9 | 44.2 | ||
| C2 SFT | 60.4 | 56.1 | 45.2 |
LLM Post-Training
Large language model post-training adapts pretrained models into more useful, reliable, and specialized assistants through supervised and preference-based learning.
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