When to use what Schatten-p norm in deep learning?

Modern deep learning optimization features heterogeneous parameter structures, noisy gradients, and highly nonconvex landscapes, posing significant challenges for both algorithm design and theoretical analysis. Motivated by the limitations of SGD and the success of adaptive optimizers, we propose {\it Schattor}, a family of adaptive first-order methods based on Schatten norms. Schattor unifies SGD and the recently proposed matrix-variate adaptive optimizer Muon within a single Schatten-norm-based framework. We establish dimension-free stationarity guarantees for methods in the Schattor family for stochastic matrix optimization problems via a novel matrix martingale moment bound. We also develop multi-block extensions that adaptively balance block-wise optimization progress and prove dimension-free stationarity guarantees in this more general setting.

A growing lesson from neural network optimization is that optimizer design should respect how the model is parametrized. The layerwise input-output structure of neural networks motivates scale-invariant optimizers, such as Muon and Scion, whose updates also support hyperparameter transfer. At the same time, stochastic gradient noise in deep learning is often far from sub-Gaussian and may exhibit heavy tails. These observations have shaped recent algorithmic principles for training neural networks, yet their joint theoretical consequences are underexplored. In particular, it remains unclear what dimension dependence is unavoidable for gradient-based methods given the problem class is defined by input-output norm and under heavy-tailed noise, and whether higher-order smoothness can accelerate training. We study these questions through nonconvex smooth stochastic optimization over $\mathbb R^{m\times n}$ equipped with general norms and under $p^\mathrm{th}$-moment heavy-tailed noise, where the goal is to achieve an $ε$-stationary point in the dual norm. Our first contribution is a dimension-dependent lower bound: when $\frac{\max\{m,n\}}{(\min\{m,n\})^2}$ is large enough, any gradient-based method requires $Ω(\min\{m, n\}ε^{-\frac{3p-2}{p-1}})$ oracles for the problem class defined by the spectral norm, which is a common input-output norm. We prove that a scale-invariant Scion method with the spectral norm can achieve the matching upper bound of $O(\min\{m, n\}ε^{-\frac{3p-2}{p-1}})$. To exploit higher-order smoothness, we propose a transported Scion method and improve the bound to $O(\min\{m, n\}ε^{-\frac{5p-3}{2p-2}})$ when the Hessian is Lipschitz. Finally, we incorporate heuristics into our transported method and evaluate it across multiple architectures and model sizes, demonstrating its flexibility and compatibility with neural network training.

The recent empirical success of the Muon optimizer has renewed interest in non-Euclidean optimization, typically justified by similarities with second-order methods, and linear minimization oracle (LMO) theory. In this paper, we challenge this geometric narrative through three contributions, demonstrating that precise geometric structure is not the key factor affecting optimization performance. First, we introduce Freon, a family of optimizers based on Schatten (quasi-)norms, powered by a novel, provably optimal QDWH-based iterative approximation. Freon naturally interpolates between SGD and Muon, while smoothly extrapolating into the quasi-norm regime. Empirically, the best-performing Schatten parameters for GPT-2 lie strictly within the quasi-norm regime, and thus cannot be represented by any unitarily invariant LMO. Second, noting that Freon performs well across a wide range of exponents, we introduce Kaon, an absurd optimizer that replaces singular values with random noise. Despite lacking any coherent geometric structure, Kaon matches Muon's performance and retains classical convergence guarantees, proving that strict adherence to a precise geometry is practically irrelevant. Third, having shown that geometry is not the primary driver of performance, we demonstrate it is instead controlled by two local quantities: alignment and descent potential. Ultimately, each optimizer must tune its step size around these two quantities. While their dynamics are difficult to predict a-priori, evaluating them within a stochastic random feature model yields a precise insight: Muon succeeds not by tracking an ideal global geometry, but by guaranteeing step-size optimality.