FP4 training promises substantial reductions in memory and computation cost for LLM pretraining, yet current FP4 hardware paths and recipes, including NVIDIA Blackwell/Rubin-class systems and AMD MI350-series GPUs, remain centered on E2M1 data elements. In this study, we identify a fundamental limitation of that choice: non-uniform formats such as E2M1 inherently suffer from Shrinkage Bias, a systematic negative rounding error caused by the geometric asymmetry of their representable bins. We show that this bias accumulates multiplicatively across layers and is amplified by the Random Hadamard Transform (RHT), providing a unified explanation for the training instability observed in existing E2M1-based FP4 recipes. In contrast, uniform grids (E1M2/INT4) bypass this grid-geometry error and better convert the improved bucket utilization from RHT into higher quantization quality. Based on this finding, we propose UFP4, a uniform 4-bit training recipe that applies RHT to all three training GEMMs while restricting stochastic rounding to dY alone. On Dense 1.5B, MoE 7.9B, and MoE 124B long-run pretraining, UFP4 consistently achieves lower BF16-relative loss degradation than strong E2M1-based baselines, supported by scaling-law analysis and ablation studies. Our results suggest that future accelerators should support E1M2/INT4-style uniform 4-bit grids as first-class training primitives alongside E2M1.
Why does full-pipeline FP4 training of large language models often diverge, even when forward activations and activation gradients remain stable? We address this question through a controlled study of MXFP4 quantization in transformer training, progressively enabling FP4 across forward propagation (Fprop), activation gradients (Dgrad), and weight gradients (Wgrad) while holding all other factors fixed. In full pretraining of Llama 3.1-8B on the C4 dataset, we observe that quantizing Wgrad is the primary driver of convergence degradation, whereas FP4 in Fprop and Dgrad alone introduces only modest additional token requirements. To interpret this behavior, we evaluate both structured and stochastic interventions under a controlled experimental setting. We find that stochastic rounding and randomized Hadamard rotations fail to stabilize training once Wgrad is quantized, whereas deterministic Hadamard rotations consistently restore stable optimization. These results suggest that FP4 training instability is driven by structured micro-scaling errors along sensitive gradient paths, rather than by insufficient stochasticity. We run experiments with native MXFP4 support on AMD Instinct MI355X GPUs, enabling controlled investigation of these effects without reliance on software emulation.
Reducing training precision is a key lever for improving the e ciency of large language model (LLM) training, but pushing beyond FP8 to 4-bit oating point (FP4) remains challenging due to instability during optimization. We identify a fundamental source of this instability in existing microscaling approaches: scale inconsistency induced by tensor transposition. In conventional 1D block quantization, forward and backward passes assign di erent scaling factors to the same values after transposition, leading to biased and unstable gradient updates. To address this issue, we propose a low-precision training framework based on 2D block FP4 quantization, which enforces transposition-invariant scaling and preserves consistency between forward and backward computations. We further combine this with truncation-free scaling and stochastic rounding to control quantization error and maintain unbiased gradients. To handle the sensitivity of attention mechanisms, we adopt MXFP8 quantization for query and key projections, yielding a practical mixed-precision design. We evaluate our method on dense LLMs up to 7B parameters and a 30B Mixture-of-Experts model, trained on up to 100B tokens. Across all settings, our approach achieves stable end-to-end FP4 training and closely matches BF16 performance, with less than 1.3% degradation in perplexity and downstream accuracy. These results demonstrate that enforcing forwardbackward scaling consistency is su cient to enable practical FP4 training at scale, providing a simple and e ective pathway toward more e cient LLM training.
Mehdi Rahimifar, Amin Darabi, Mehran Taghian Jazi +6
Recent NVFP4 pretraining methods mainly target transformer linear layers, leaving optimizer states, optimizer arithmetic and attention underexplored in 4-bit pipelines. This critical gap blocks stable full-stack 4-bit pretraining, as the three core modules exhibit unique numerical failure patterns: linear layers hit hard quantization noise limits with dimension-propagated error amplification; AdamW second moments are heavy-tailed non-negative values fragile to low-precision denominators; attention carries error-prone computation paths demanding strict forward-backward quantization consistency. We propose Full-Stack FP4, the first complete NVFP4 pretraining framework resolving all three stability bottlenecks via module-wise precision strategies. For linear projections, LoRA-SVD lightweight decomposition suppresses quantization noise and breaks the direct-quantization error ceiling, shrinking the linear-only loss gap from 1.40% to 0.61%. For optimizers, we design AdamW second-moment transformation for robust NVFP4 storage and fully support native NVFP4 Newton-Schulz iterations for the Root (Muon) optimizer. For attention, a mixed-precision scheme quantizes Q/K/V and backward dS while guarding vulnerable paths in BF16, paired with unified tensor reuse to sustain forward-backward alignment. We further analyze fast error accumulation in naive low-bit matrix multiplication and the extreme sensitivity of PV / dOV^T attention branches. All modules are plug-and-play with cumulative stability and efficiency improvements. Our 3B/64B-token pretraining validates near-BF16 performance with merely 1.47% loss gap, verifying feasible stable end-to-end NVFP4 LLM pretraining.