Optimizers play an important role in both pretraining and finetuning stages when training large language models (LLMs). In this paper, we present an observation that full finetuning with the same optimizer as in pretraining achieves a better learning-forgetting tradeoff, i.e., forgetting less while achieving the same or better performance on the new task, than other optimizers and, possibly surprisingly, LoRA, during the supervised finetuning (SFT) stage. We term this phenomenon optimizer-model consistency. To better understand it, through controlled experiments and theoretical analysis, we show that: 1) optimizers can shape the models by having regularization effects on the activations, leading to different landscapes around the pretrained checkpoints; 2) in response to this regularization effect, the weight update in SFT should follow some specific structures to lower forgetting of the knowledge learned in pretraining, which can be obtained by using the same optimizer. Moreover, we specifically compare Muon and AdamW when they are employed throughout the pretraining and SFT stages and find that Muon performs worse when finetuned for reasoning tasks. With a synthetic language modeling experiment, we demonstrate that this can come from Muon's strong tendency towards rote memorization, which may hurt pattern acquisition with a small amount of data, as for SFT.
Muon has emerged as an efficient alternative to Adam for pretraining, yet remains underused for fine-tuning. A key obstacle is that most open models are pretrained with Adam, and naively switching to Muon for fine-tuning leads to degraded performance due to an optimizer mismatch. We investigate this mismatch through controlled experiments and relate it to the distinct implicit biases of Adam and Muon. We provide evidence that the mismatch disrupts pretrained knowledge, and that this disruption scales with update strength. This leads us to hypothesize that constraining updates should mitigate the mismatch. We validate this with LoRA: across language and vision tasks, LoRA reduces the performance gap between Adam and Muon observed under full fine-tuning. Studies on LoRA rank, catastrophic forgetting, and LoRA variants further confirm that mismatch severity correlates with update strength. These results shed light on how optimizer mismatch affects fine-tuning and how it can be mitigated. Our code is available at https://github.com/XingyuQu/muon-finetune.
Every supervised fine-tuning run forces the same chain of decisions, such as learning rate, batch size, LoRA or full fine-tuning, how many epochs, which optimiser, and what data to feed the model. Each of these is typically rediscovered from scratch for every new model and dataset. Here we measure them under one instrument: a sweep that varies one lever at a time, and spans dense and mixture-of-experts models in two families (Qwen3 and Llama), on four real-world customer SFT datasets, for both LoRA and full fine-tuning. These datasets give a controlled testbed: each task carries an evaluation built with the customer, and its training data is produced by iterative supervised fine-tuning that refines model outputs until they pass that evaluation, so the supervised target is internally consistent and the task judge we report against is the criterion the data was built to satisfy. We ask how the optimal learning rate and batch size move with model scale, family, and data, and whether one selection rule transfers across them; what LoRA trades against full fine-tuning, and how its rank and alpha set what the adapter can learn; whether validation loss (or other metrics, such as loss landscape flatness) faithfully ranks downstream quality; whether post-training gains scale with model size and data volume, on a model ladder extended through mixtures-of-experts to 235B parameters; how many epochs to train before general instruction-following erodes; and whether a geometry-aware optimiser improves on AdamW. Each recommendation is paired with a measure of its uncertainty.
Charles O'Neill, Mudith Jayasekara, Harry Partridge
Models trained on a new task typically degrade on prior tasks, a phenomenon known as forgetting. Traditionally, mitigating forgetting has required replaying stored exemplars from prior tasks, which is often impractical. By contrast, language models can sample from their own training distribution, and we show that these self-generated samples serve as effective replay data, nearly eliminating forgetting. We find that forgetting nonetheless persists when the model has little remaining capacity: models pretrained close to saturation cannot absorb new information without overwriting prior knowledge. When capacity is not the limiting factor, low learning rates reduce forgetting but require substantially more training steps. Replay breaks this tradeoff, enabling fast, high-learning-rate finetuning without forgetting.